Police Life: The Experts podcast - Season 2 Episode 5: Inside the Special Operations Group transcript

It’s one of the most secretive police units in Australia but, in this episode, two serving Special Operations Group operators speak about what it’s like to work in a tactical police unit tasked with responding to terrorism incidents, hostage situations and arresting Victoria’s most dangerous criminals.

Listen to this episode and other episodes of Victoria Police's official podcast, Police Life: The Experts.

Transcript of Police Life: The Experts podcast, Season 2 Episode 5: Inside the Special Operations Group

Introduction: You’re listening to Police Life: The Experts. A Victoria Police podcast shining a light on our people and their extraordinary skills.

Voiceover: This podcast episode contains references to physical violence. Listener discretion is advised.

[Atmospheric music and sounds of sirens and a police raid taking place]

Richard: The current boss there now, when he was a sergeant, he said to me, ‘Every single job is a grand final’. And that's what I say to the young guys coming in. ‘Look at it as a grand final. No one else is there. You've got to deal with it. It's the grand final’.

Voiceover: It’s the culture of Victoria Police’s Special Operations Group. The lessons of success and failure are passed down from senior members to the new recruits of this highly skilled tactical unit.

Tom: It's been a steep learning curve. It has. Absolutely. But yeah, you just I guess make the best of it. There's a wealth of experience around you to get you through it all. You are never by yourself or anything like that. The guys are always around you and you're a team.

[Suspenseful music begins]

Voiceover: They don’t give interviews. They keep their identity secret, even within Victoria Police. In court they are known only by an operator number.

They are the officers dressed in camouflage uniforms that are called upon to arrest the state’s most dangerous criminals. But in this episode, a 20-year veteran pulls back the curtain on his career, along with a new team member who has just finished the gruelling selection course.

Tom: I think joining the SOG has always been number one. And so, everything leading up to getting here – it's just been about getting here.

Richard: I just love catching crooks. I think that's probably what got me in there in the first place. I enjoyed doing the detective work, but it's too much paperwork. They don't get the highs of catching the really bad crooks.

[Sound of large group of unruly people shouting]

Richard: My name is Richard, I’m a senior sergeant at the Special Operations Group. I joined Victoria Police in 1996, and I joined the SOG in 2003. I spent 15 years at the SOG before I left on promotion to senior sergeant in uniform, and I came back to the SOG in 2021.

Tom: I’m Tom. I joined Victoria Police in 2017. I joined the SOG in 2024. I worked at other specialist units and out in the country beforehand.

Richard: So, I left school in 1993 and didn't know what I wanted to do but really didn't want to go to university. And thought about the police force.

So, my father started in 1963. So he was a cadet from long ago and obviously was a policeman for my whole time growing up. I didn't really look at it anything more than a job, though, and he really wouldn't tell me any stories about what happened.

I remember getting through the Academy and being in a training station and a lot of the people there knew my old man, and they actually told me that I had big boots to fill.

He got a bravery award very early on in his career, when he disarmed a man with a firearm. Actually, I'm lucky to be here today. The crook pointed the firearm at him jammed it into his guts and pulled the trigger and it misfired.

Tom: Mum and Dad owned bakeries. So, yeah, I'm the first copper in my family. But I wanted to be a police officer from a very young age. We had the police in schools programs that came to our primary school, secondary school and stuff like that. And those members that are coming to the school are very good role models.

So, I decided to go to uni and I studied PE, outdoor ed. So, I got into education after uni. I only taught for about 12 months just in, like, a casual capacity. And then, yeah, joined the police after that. So, I’ve still got that degree, but I don't use it at all.

Voiceover: Tom’s role models have become old hands, like Richard.

After 15 years on the SOG frontline, Richard left the unit to take up a role as a senior sergeant in another squad. He returned to the SOG in a supervisory role but, on the very first job, Richard was back in the action.

Richard: So, it was just the standard cordon and call to arrest a person for, I think, a number of nasty offences – firearm offences and the like.

I'm just going to drive the ballistic vehicle into the driveway – and he had his car in the driveway facing out. And of course as the Bearcat is coming down the street …

[Suspenseful music begins]

Voiceover: The Bearcat is a heavily armoured vehicle that is used to safely approach dangerous situations. The only problem, it was 20 seconds away when this unfolded.

Richard: He's decided to walk out of the house straight into the car to drive off. And so, I just said for the one of the fourbys to block the driveway so he couldn't drive out. He drove straight into the four-wheel drive and the driveway the next place over was a vacant block.

[Sound of vehicle being driven erratically]

So, the crook’s put it in reverse, driven sideways through the fence into the vacant block. One of the fourbys has followed the car through the fence and tried to block him in with another fourby. He's been able to avoid the second fourby and go to drive out through the vacant block.

Voiceover: Richard and his inspector were there to observe and supervise but making critical decisions goes to the heart of being in the SOG.

Richard: I looked at the inspector who was in the car with me, and I'm like, ‘Oh, we're going to have to get involved here’, because we could see it happening. So, I've pulled up across the nature strip and he's driven straight into the front of my car. So that stopped him coming out of the vacant block.

But he's put it in reverse and floored it back through the fence on the other side and into the backyard of a house, and then he's run off on foot and we've arrested him a short time later.

I looked at the inspector, and he looks at me, and he's like shaking his head and he goes, ‘Welcome back!’.

Tom: I guess it's just a bit of a reality check. Like, for the types of jobs that the SOG go to and the types of jobs that may come our way now that we're in the unit. You know, those jobs receive a lot of media attention, you know, they’re big crooks and it's just a stark reminder that's the calibre of crook we're dealing with, and that's the calibre of incident that we're going to be expected to resolve.

Given that it's always where I wanted to end up, it's fantastic to throw the uniform on and do the job. Yeah, my head's still spinning a little bit. You know, it's still doesn't quite feel real but, yeah, it's fantastic. It's really good.

Voiceover: It’s regarded as a dangerous job but Richard has a different viewpoint.

Richard: Uniform have the most dangerous job. They go to everything unknown. They have limited training in dealing with high-risk offenders.

We have the training. We have usually the understanding and the planning of what we're going into, and we have the equipment and the technology. Yeah, there's times when you’ve got to make split decisions and deal with what you see but a majority of the time there's an ongoing risk assessment. There's an ongoing contingencies and planning for actions to be taken based on what the person dictates.

So, we will plan for the safe arrest of a person, and we'll have contingencies for if they do this, this, this and this. What actions we will take. Uniform don't have that time to make those plans the majority of the time.

When I first got there in 2003, you might do 50 jobs a year. To the point now that we're doing, you know, well up towards 200 jobs a year. And if you're not doing jobs, you'll be doing training.

So, I think this week already being Wednesday, we've done two jobs. So, yeah. And there's another one on later in the week. So today the guys are out training.

Tom: It's very busy. And it's heaps busier than what I think the general public would be led to believe. And, you know, we're always doing something.

Richard: A lot of the jobs the SOG get involved in is resolution of kidnappings. Whether it be utilising - the hostage might be in a vehicle and we’ll do a mobile intercept on a car.

We've done resolution or rescuing the hostage with using explosive entry on a hotel door to gain entry and secure the offender and save the hostage. We've also done ones where we've had to utilise the canine, the tactical working dog, to be released and impact the hostage taker and rescue the hostage.

I suppose one particular one that comes to mind in a kidnapping, and a hostage-taking job was a few years ago now where a guy was holding a knife to a male friend and he was off his face on drugs, and he's very aggressive. And they were in a room in a house – in a bedroom, in a house.

So we had set our cordon up around that and we had an emergency action plan to if, the triggers were met, i.e. that we believed the person was being injured any way that we would gain entry and get into the premises and rescue the hostage. I wasn't having a great role on the job. I was probably in the cordon at the time, nothing was happening.

And the senior sergeant spoke to the team leader – which wasn’t me at the time, I was a sergeant but wasn’t team leader – and said that we're getting information from a mate of his who's getting texts from the victim inside saying that he's in this room and he's half got the window open, and he reckons he can jump out the window. So, the senior sergeant said, ‘Have you got a plan to maybe assist with that?’.

And I said, ‘Look, my role is pretty null and void where I am now. I'm pretty happy. I'll crawl down the side of the house and get underneath the window and we'll set it up’. So we've got members on the other side of the fence opposite the window, which was down the side of the house.

So it was about a metre and a half wide. We'll set members up behind the fence, see if they can get obs, have a less lethal option being a taser and a beanbag and a lethal option, just in case. And, when he's ready, let us know. I'll be under the window. Guys, call it whatever the word is, that means he's climbing out. Grab him, fall down, and they impact the guy if he goes to stab him in any way.

So, I'm crawling around the side of the house on my hands and there’s rocks everywhere, because I wasn't 100 per cent sure of the room he was in. Either the first one or the second one. I'm crawling down there, and I could see when I got closer, or hear when I got closer, there was a lot of yelling in one room. Not yelling as in abuse, just obviously a male was drug affected.

I crawled out and I got under the window. The window was ajar, but it was a sliding window. It was ajar but it wasn't wide enough for someone to get out of. So, I’m texting the senior sergeant to say, he needs to make it wider before he gets out of it, if he can. Otherwise he'll get caught up. He's getting back to me saying, ‘He can't do anything at the moment. Can you help him with that?’

We're doing this for probably an hour, an hour and a half, because we only had the one chance. If he didn't get out the window or got hung up there was a chance he could have got stabbed.

Because, from the conversations going on inside, he's quite aggressive, the guy. He was obviously more mad than bad. He was, you know – he had mental health issues. Clearly on drugs, but quite aggressive.

So, in the end, we had it so that I was under the window. We had guys set up. One of them was giving me obs through the fence to say what was going on.

And we had a plan to say as soon as that window is pushed ajar, stand up. Grab him. Pull him through as he's climbing out, fall to the ground and I'll impact the crook if he's moving forward to do anything.

So, we had a code word used to say, ‘Yep, this is happening’. I was in position. And it was just a matter of waiting then, and I remember just being waiting for another probably half an hour thinking, ‘When is this going to happen?’.

In the end, the code word was said. The guy’s … I saw his hands come up on the window frame. I’ve stood up, grabbed him, reefed him through, pretty much breaking the window, at the same time falling onto the ground. And the guy was coming out to stab him with the knife.

So the blokes are shooting beanbags and tasers over the top of us into this guy who was impacted and fell back down to the ground and, and we just like, I just dragged him out of the way and, the guy stayed in the room, and yeah, we got the hostage away from him.

It’s a good result in the end.

[Suspenseful music begins]

Voiceover: These are the day-to-day demands on a SOG member. Tom is an outstanding recruit, trained to meet the challenges of today’s squad and he finished top of his intake.

Richard: He sucked up to the instructors. No, look, the student of merit, it's the Paul Carr awards, so it's named after Paul Carr.

[Audio - Recreation of radio news report]

[Atmospheric music]

Newsreader: The head of Victoria Police's elite Special Operations Group, Inspector Paul Carr, has died in Tibet after being trapped on one of the world's highest mountains.

Mr Carr, 42, was part of a four-man police team climbing Cho Oyo, the world's sixth-highest peak.

Richard: Paul Carr said to us, before he died in 2003, ‘The SOG, you have a front row seat to the best show in the world’, and in Victoria Police, 100 per cent agree with that statement. You know, the opportunities, the jobs, the mateships, the experience you have, it'd be the best role in Victoria Police. You know, the best job.

The directing staff will look at the development of the member. You mightn't be the crack shot. You mightn't be the fastest runner. You're the person that has shown that you can pick up the skills and put them into practice the best over the – well, it's 13 weeks now – the 13-week period, and also be a great team member and respected by your peers as well as the directing staff.

And just so happens that Tom was the student of merit for this year. He struggled at times through selection and really thought he wasn't going to make it.

Tom: Honestly, the student of merit thing, any of us could have got it. They could pick a name out of a hat.

My Achilles heel – definitely the running and the cardio stuff. So, there was points on selection where I really struggled.

In those moments, it's like, 'Whoa, what am I doing here?'. You know, everybody else is in front of you. You know, it's sun shining on everybody else, and just those moments of self-doubt creep in. But, yeah, you’ve just got to put your head down and persevere.

Richard: It was quite intense. This was back in 2003. I think it was 72 of us that started and, yeah, it was quite physical for a number of days straight. And yeah, it was constant, you know looking in yourself and saying, ‘Can I keep going?'. You know, this is getting ridiculous. 'Can I keep going?’.

The structure has changed a bit since then, but it was definitely – there was a lot of moments where I'm thinking, ‘Oh, geez, I'll just quit now'. You know – get a warm cup of coffee. A warm cup and have a rest because it's cold and you're wet, you know, you're hungry. But, in all honesty, I didn't want to go back to the watchhouse.

But everyone's in the same boat. As the numbers get smaller and smaller and smaller and you're left with, you know, mid-teens, you sort of bond a bit closer and work together to get through. The instructors know that you're at your wit’s end and you're mentally and physically exhausted, but they'll just keep pushing to see if you can keep going.

Voiceover: The SOG was formed in 1977 by legendary Chief Commissioner Mick Miller as a counter terrorism force. The selection process has evolved ever since to meet the needs of changing times.

[Suspenseful music and sounds of a police siren and authoritative voices calling]

Richard: So, each selection intake will be improved upon as it goes on. The biggest evolution probably has been the training facilities. Initially, they had a building in Northcote, and they used to go to military ranges and private farms to do their training.

Ten, 15 years later, they've got a tyre house at a Craigieburn quarry and then probably end of the 90s, early 2000s, we've got an area that's got a number of ranges, 100 metre, 200 metre, 25 metre ranges.

And it's a concrete base facility. It's got a live fire house, method of entry house there. And that was exceptional for that timeline. But you get to fast-forward to today and we've got a tactical training facility, an indoor one that's world class, and it's probably one of the best, you know, definitely one of the best in Australia, if not the world.

Voiceover: Richard remembers selection as a war of attrition. Many fine applicants did not meet the standard.

Richard: Intakes were about focusing on testing the mettle of the students, or the applicants at the time. Through incredibly difficult physical training, negative reinforcements, and probably a less nurturing instructional philosophy. You're expected to pick the skills up that you're being taught very quickly. A very steep learning curve, and it still is. But if you couldn't keep up, you were removed then and there. And the intake course back then was probably a selection the entire time. So back at the start it was a three-day selection and then a 12-week intake course. The graduates from the intakes back then probably proved that they had the physical and the mental fortitude to get through and had the ability to pick up the skills.

But after they graduated, it was a constant learning curve, throughout probably the first two years. And a lot of the applicants probably weren't tested in selection for phobias and other things and got onto the course and got to like week 10. And that week used to be all to do with, rappelling, fast roping, etcetera. And their heights phobias came out and then they were removed from the course.

So, we had to change the structure to not have as many removals. So, selection went from who were going to take on the course. And the intake became the actual skill enhancement.

Probably the biggest overhaul happened around 2014, where we sought out subject matter experts and independent researchers to challenge and improve our selection methods.

You know, so we had contributions from industry experts and also academics.

Australian Catholic University, they came out, looked at what we do for the job, and they set up a basic PT test that was based on what we were actually doing in our role. The physical training is designed to make the members stronger rather than to exhaust them.

A psychologist came out to the selection. He looked at what we were doing in relation to the psychological testing, and he included the abstract spatial and mechanical and reasoning tests. This helped immensely, because the selection would prove that applicants are intelligent, and the training course would validate it.

So, what we learnt from the testing there was mechanically, they'll be able to pick up stripping and assembling a firearm or they won't be able to do this, and if you put them on the course, they'll struggle. And we've had plenty of courses where it's highlighted, look, they've got other great elements that we want from them, so we'll give them a go.

Tom: It's tough. It is very challenging. It's not for the faint of heart at all. I'd say it's not needlessly difficult. As in, you're not getting smashed for no reason, and you can tell you’re not getting smashed for no reason. Everything that you do on selection and intake has a purpose.

And at the end, they tell you how many assessments you've done. And look, I won't give it away how much tests you do. But they tell you the number and it's just ‘In what time? In what time have you managed to do this many assessments?’. Because you're constantly being assessed and watched.

So, it's very challenging. You have to want it.

[Suspenseful music begins]

Voiceover: After graduation, recruits hit the ground running. ‘Every job is a grand final’, as Richard’s sergeant told him.

Richard: Oh, look, every job that the SOG do, the guys draw their firearms. So, they're always going to have their firearm out to deal with the crooks.

Voiceover: Day one for Richard was the arrest of one of Australia’s most notorious crooks, contract killer Andrew Veniamin.

Richard: Graduation night, I was on call. So could be called at any time. My first job was to arrest Andrew Veniamin, as part of the underworld war that was going on at the time.

And I remember seeing him get out of the car and he's on the ground. I had to strap him up. I'm thinking, ‘Geez, this guy’s tiny, he's probably four foot tall’. So, yeah, I didn't think much of him, that's for sure.

It was pretty straightforward, but it was good to get the first one out of the way.

Tom: So, my first job, I wasn't involved in the arrest at all. I had a role to play and did it. I've been involved in arrests after that. Once you get the cuffs on, it's just a great feeling. You know, as Richard said earlier, we just love catching crooks.

When you get those cuffs on and you're walking the offender out, it's just like a feeling of like, we won.

Richard: And then we hand them over and you might have to make a statement or something, but you don't have to do the brief and all the dramas that go along with the court appearances nowadays. But I just enjoy catching crooks.

I think that’s what we're looking for – is good coppers that enjoy catching crooks. You know, you have minimal two years experience on the road. You don't need military experience. You don't need to go to CIRT. Just be a good copper that enjoys catching crooks. That's what we're after.

You’re going to be faced with decision-making every day. You know, you have to make a decision about what you're going to do. Good. Bad. Indifferent. Just make a decision. You know, you've got to do something. You're there to provide a service to the community. You're there to provide skills in, you know, arrest situations. You're there do a job. Doing that job requires you to make a decision.

You treat it like an NFL team. So, you've got your big, brawny guys that do a lot of the heavy lifting. You've got your quarterback that is able to be a good team leader. Read the plays.

And then you've got your running backs, your linebackers, etcetera. That, they fit in and can do their role. So yeah, we have guys that are, you know, six foot five and built – huge. And we've got guys that look like they're 12-year-olds you know, yeah, they're not big at all. But they can do the job and are very good at it.

Voiceover: Tom fits the running back mould while Richard is definitely a quarterback.

[Upbeat music begins]

February 18th 2005 was another grand final for the SOG. A possible mobile intercept at rush hour on a rainy Friday night. A dangerous suspect is on the move, ready to shoot it out with police.

[Sound of distant gunshots]

Voiceover: Shots fired in South Melbourne.

Richard: I've got a ballistic vest on and I've got a ballistic helmet. But I've got no ballistic face shield or anything like that. Before I‘ve moved forward I've turned to two of the members and I said, ‘You cover me’.

So, I move forward and I'm thinking that if he's there when I smash this glass and he fires that’s it for me. But the idea was we had to do something.

[Suspenseful and atmospheric music begins]

Voiceover: Ten days earlier, homicide detectives had briefed the SOG on Operation Motto, the investigation into the murder of Sydenham man Brian Bottomley, and the hunt for Wayne Joannou, the killer. Joannou was a violent career criminal with a long history.

Richard: It was the 7th of February that year. Wayne Joannou had attended an associate’s house, another well-known criminal, we’ll say. And it was his girlfriend's house, actually. He attended there and walked in and shot this person in the head and then forced the victim's girlfriend to drive him to a Bunnings store, where he purchased a power saw. Then went back to the address and proceeded to cut up the victim, put him in plastic bags and dispose of his remains.

His remains have never been found. He's actually left that address and left the traumatised girlfriend who has preceded then to attend Keilor Downs Police Station and report what had happened. That same day Wayne Joannou has gone to the Keilor Downs Police Station to report on bail. He's attended the foyer and the policeman there knew he had to be arrested. He's obviously worked out that something's not right and he's decamped.

Then for the next couple of weeks, the hunt was on to find him.

Voiceover: The SOG had arrested Joannou before in 2003 and expected to be involved in the capture of this dangerous man. They waited for the call. Working on scenarios for a safe arrest.

Richard: So, it was a Friday on the 18th of February, there was intel to suggest that Wayne Joannou was at an address in Deer Park with a loaded shotgun. And there was a couple other people in the house.

There was discussion of whether we conduct a forced entry to complete an arrest. But in the circumstances and his attitude was, he had a loaded shotgun, he's already showed his propensity for violence to shoot someone in the head and chop up their body.

[Suspenseful music begins]

Probably around 6pm a green Toyota Camry left the address with two people on board. There was a driver and a passenger. He may have also been in the vehicle hiding in the back seat because he knew he was wanted by police.

We received intel that he had advised the driver that if they’re pulled over by police, he's going to shoot the uniform police officers. And their driving wasn't, I suppose, conducive to not being pulled over. It was peak hour and they were making their way through traffic via emergency lanes so they'd stand out.

We didn't want to have uniform police pull the vehicle over and end up in a shootout with this guy.

So, the vehicle made its way from Sunshine in the direction towards the city. Now, this is, as I said, 6pm, a bit after 6pm on a Friday afternoon. Traffic was pretty poor, but we received intel that there was someone in the back seat probably about 5 to 10 minutes after it left the address. So, the intel then was we're going to move closer.

There were concerns he was forcing the driver and passenger to take him somewhere. But we weren't 100 per cent sure of that at that time, when we made our way into a bit closer to town, it was just a nightmare getting all the vehicles through the traffic.

They were in the South Melbourne area and we were nearby, we were probably about a kilometre away. They moved into a street –Bank Street South Melbourne – and took a 45-degree park. At that stage, it was confirmed that he was in the back seat. And we had other information that said that he was armed with a pump action shotgun.

There was some intel to suggest that they were scoring drugs. He was very heavily using ice. They'd come to an address to score, basically.

The team leader who was running the job, he was next to me in the front passenger seat. So, I was driving the lead car of the team. There was probably another three or four vehicles involved.

So, there was quick planning in relation to what we were actually going to do to effect an arrest as best as possible. We were going to drive into Bank Street. They’re in a 45-degree park.

It was on the southern side of the street. We were turning right, so it was on our left. If you're driving up Bank Street, the vehicle was on our left in a 45-degree park. The first vehicle being myself was going to drive past the vehicle and stop just past it. Second car was going to hit it from the rear. Now, the idea to drive the second vehicle into the rear was to disrupt the people inside the car. To think ‘What the hell's going on?’

At that stage, we would have the sirens and the blue lights on our vehicles as well. And the third vehicle was going to sit to the opposite side of where I was, so stopped just prior to the vehicle.

Now the idea is to position the vehicles like that was also to protect ourselves in case there was going to be any sort of shooting, that we wouldn't be crossfire amongst ourselves at all. So that was going to be the set up as well.

So, we drove into Bank Street. I saw the vehicle. I could see there was two people in the front driver's seat in the passenger seat. I couldn't see anyone in the back of the car at that stage.

I stopped past the car and I heard the impact of the second car colliding with the rear of the Camry. At that stage, I heard the rear doors open. So, there was the two people in the back of my car were getting out and the front passenger, the team leader, he was getting out of the front passenger seat next to me. He was calling ‘Police, don't move’.

Voiceover: The team leader later explained to the Coroners Court that he saw Joannou rise from the back seat and point his shotgun at him through the back window.

[Suspenseful music begins]

[Sound of gunfire]

Richard: And the next minute I look across at him and he's firing towards the Camry.

He would have been probably four to five metres away, totally exposed. Like he's – the door's not protecting him.

I, at this stage, couldn’t see what was going on. All I could hear was that shots were being fired.

He’s surrounded, he had nowhere to go. Basically, he's chosen to point his shotgun at police. Basically climbed up in the back seat and pointed the shotgun directly at the team leader and the rear seat passenger of my vehicle. Directly at them.

I took out my handgun and got out of the car, moved across to a parked vehicle, pretty much parallel with the Camry. I could see that there was a few small holes in the rear driver's side window. And in the back of the Camry, the back window, there was a few holes in it. The glass had shattered, but it stayed in place. So, you couldn't see into the back of the car at all.

I could also see that one member was calling on the driver and another member on the other side was calling to the front seat passenger of the car to crawl towards them and get out of the way. And a couple of members moved forward, dragged them out of the way behind cover. So, I knew at that stage I could see that they weren't injured.

[Suspenseful music begins]

Voiceover: More than a dozen shots rang out in 20 seconds. The SOG could not tell whether Joannou had returned fire and whether he was still a threat.

Richard: At that stage there was a call to use a distraction device, which is basically a stun grenade. So, there's two loud bangs and flashes. The idea was to throw them into the rear seat to smash the window to see what he was doing and also in that case to distract him if he was still armed and wanted to take up the fight to the members.

So, there was a number of distraction devices being thrown. I took my best baseball pitch with one and piffed it and it hit the lip of the roof and the window and ricocheted into the front yard of an address and just landed on the ground and had no impact whatsoever. And I saw a number of other ones bounce off the vehicle as well. So, they weren't actually causing the damage that we wanted to allow for that visibility into the rear of the car.

Voiceover: The only way to resolve the situation was to bring in a linebacker, and Richard stepped up.

[Suspenseful music begins]

Richard: So, I move forward with the ram. I smashed the window and draw my firearm straight away. I could see him in the back seat. He was holding on to the shotgun. It was one of those like chrome plated shotguns, pump action. I could see it was pump action. He still had his right hand on the foregrip and his fingers was on the trigger guard and his left hand was on the shotgun itself.

I'm still calling on him thinking at any stage he could turn towards me. He hadn't and I could see he had blood on his face at that stage.

He wasn't a danger to us.

So, yeah, I sort of crawled in a bit and grabbed his right arm and pulled it away from the shotgun and I grabbed his right arm and pulled him towards me, basically. His head rolled over and I could see he had significant damage to his face. And I dragged him out of the vehicle with the help of another member. And we put him on the ground and we started first aid as best we could.

He wasn't dead at that stage. He had significant trauma to the head. So, I remember taking a bandage out and wrapping around his injuries to his head, on his head, to prevent blood loss as best I could. Cut his clothes off to see if he was impacted anywhere else to assist with some of the medics, we had to do first aid and then the AV arrived, probably about five minutes after. And he was straight onto a gurney and they were working on him in the back of the ambulance.

Voiceover: Despite the best efforts of the SOG and paramedics, Wayne Joannou died at the scene.

Richard: I think we did everything we can, along with the investigators and the intel we received at the time, to put ourselves in a position to conduct the safest arrest possible. And his actions dictated the actual result in the end.

I think probably once a week we'll get a job that the criminal has said they will die by cop. So, we are aware of – crooks will say they're going to shoot it out with cops. They're going to do this, they're going to do that. We're aware of that. And we will do everything we can to conduct a safe arrest.

I wasn't thinking at the time when I pulled up the car that this was going to be a shootout. I was thinking that he's going to be called on.

He's going to see the overwhelming force. That he's got nowhere to go. He's going to give up, you know, or he's going to tell them to drive, you know, or whatever it might be. But he's not going to shoot it out with police because of the fact that he pops his head up, he sees there's three police vehicles. There's six, seven police pointing guns at him saying, 'Police, don't move!'. The gig's up.

Voiceover: Wayne Joannou was a heavy ice user, paranoid and unpredictable. Interactions with such individuals are unfortunately very common for the SOG these days.

Richard: I think the main issue now that we've probably, has changed since the initial phase of me getting to the office, is the use of ice. The use of ice has really impacted society.

It gives people a sense of bravado, there's no doubt about it. And, initially, we didn't have problems doing mobile intercepts. Now no one wants to stop. They all want to keep driving because they're amped up on ice. So, we probably come across more bad people than we do mad. As in bad but hyped up on ice than we do come across people with mental health issues.

The job itself, look, it's not ideal. Someone lost their life. But as I said, our mission was the safe arrest of Wayne Joannou. We did everything we could to make that happen, his actions dictated the result.

Yeah, it's – you know, no one is actually cheering after a job like that. Everyone is like, well, you know, it didn't go how we wanted. Everyone's safe. We did the right thing. Everyone's safe.

We debriefed it and then debriefed it again. Members all got their chance to speak about it, all got their chance to say how they were feeling at the time, all got their chance to discuss any impacts on themselves.

Voiceover: Many of the training scenarios Tom has been through during selection are influenced by jobs like the confrontation with Wayne Joannou.

Richard: So, a lot of the scenarios are task-based that we've been involved in ourselves. They'll probably make mistakes, or they will make mistakes, but they'll learn from those mistakes. So, if they're ever put in a situation like that in the real world, they'll understand that their training will assist them to make the correct decision. You know, that's not going to be every time, though. You still make mistakes and no doubt about it.

Tom: With respect to fear, you just put it somewhere else and trust that you know what you're doing and trust in the teachings.

You just have to trust the training that you get during intake and the continual training that you get once you're in the office. And you just have to trust that the tactics and the equipment and, all the strategies that we use, are going to be enough to resolve the job.

Your role is part of a big team effort. We always win. And, you know, it's just you have to trust, everything that's in place to be able to resolve the incident.

Richard What Tom said is correct. I think that the main part of that is, you do trust your training. You do trust that you know what you're doing. And my theory is when I was doing jobs was, I know my role.

My role is to, for example, hit the door and knock it in. I don't care who's behind the door. It could be the Incredible Hulk. I'll hit the door and get in, because if I don't get in, the next part can't happen without me.

So, it's very much, like that on any job you're doing, whether you're driving the car or the whatever role you have, you do it to the best of your ability, and you know that everyone else will do theirs and we'll get a good result. And it's up to the team leaders to make the decisions. If things don't go right, risk assess and come up with another plan at the drop of a hat.

The guys that have got families, it's probably talked about during your intake course that there's going to be an impact to your private life. So, you explain it now to your loved ones that there's going to be times where I’m away for, you know, days at a time.

It's different than what it was years ago. Nowadays, you know, if you've got young families, you've got all that paternity leave you can take. And we encourage the members to take it at the time and make sure they spend the time when their kids are young.

Yeah. You're going to be impacted sometimes when you’re away for one, two days at a time. But the supportive family network, those people usually last longer at the SOG because it can have an impact.

There are some members that have left because it's been too hard on the family and they've gone to other areas for it. But there is a lot of disruption. When you're on call especially it is a lot of disruption. Not so much when you're not on call these days, you'll get that time to have long weekends, etcetera.

Voiceover: Richard’s advice to Tom is never miss an opportunity to learn.

Richard: Take every opportunity you're given, i.e. every course that you're given, an opportunity to complete, do it. Because you never know when those learnings are going to help you along the way.

I would probably say model yourself on the good operators. Learn from your experiences and enjoy the ride.

[Upbeat music begins]

Tom: It's meaningful work. But I guess while I'm young, fit and able this is the work that I want to do. Yeah. And I suppose it's a motivation thing as well. Everybody that comes to the office is extremely motivated. So, you just you set your sights on that, that top goal and you know, that's what you go for.

Voiceover: Police Life: The Experts is a Victoria Police production.

Your host is Belinda Batty.

This episode was written by Adam Shand.

Additional writing and research by Jesse Wray-McCann.

It was produced by Adam Shand and Jesse Wray-McCann.

The senior producer was Ros Jaguar.

Audio production and original music by Mat Dwyer.

Theme song by Veaceslav Draganov.

Executive producer was Beck Angel.

This podcast was created by the Media, Communications and Engagement Department at Victoria Police.

To learn more about the work of Victoria Police, go to police.vic.gov.au.